Ahead of the first CPD event of 2026, Jo Coggins caught up curiously with Sue Walsh and Kate Freshwater about their event Thinking Organisationally: Developing CAT Supervision and Consultancy Skills. This takes place on 6th February in Manchester.
Q: Where did your interest in working organisationally begin?
Sue
I did a Phd at the Institute of Work Psychology, and then went on to do my clinical psychology training. But the two interlocking worlds of clinical and organisational psychology always co-existed for me. They both influenced my thinking and clinical practice. It all came to life further when early in my career I co-ran organisational training events with an organisational psychologist. Events would include an audience of international and UK executives . It was clear to me that relational ways of thinking could directly influence organisational work. Furthermore, the audience liked and found it useful to use clinical/CAT ways of formulating to make sense of organisational culture and change processes in their corporate environments.
Kate
A contact from my undergraduate Psychology degree course went on to organisational work, whereas I chose the clinical route. We continued to connect professionally after I’d trained in CAT. Her enthusiasm about the concept of reciprocal roles and CAT mapping helped me see the added dimension that CAT could bring. Later in my NHS career, and with the support to develop CAT in a mental health Trust, I had opportunity to apply it more broadly beyond therapy. Staff often found the model accessible; they quickly “got it”. There seemed a natural progression from contextual work, minimising harm to clients, to enabling reflection on what we bring to our work. This helped us consider how we work best together, onto enabling effective leadership.
Q: Can you tell us a bit more about how you came to find stories and metaphor useful in this work?
Sue
I’ve always valued the role of stories and metaphors as a way of providing alternative realities to clients and staff who feel stuck. It’s such a good way of summarising complexity, and enabling the capacity for play and therefore ways out.
Now I’m thinking about it the spark was struck when I was co-presenting research about organisational change in the early 2000’s . This was to a number of big, private, international companies. I would speak about interpersonal ‘soft’ factors underlying organisational change and why change feels so difficult. I asked the audience to use pen and paper to describe their current experience of system change. Various participants drew images to represent their felt experience of roles and tasks, for example restructuring a company. Some of the images and metaphors that emerged were incredibly powerful. They made immediate sense of, say, a feeling of sheer powerlessness. This might exist even for people whose positions afford them huge structural power.
And so began a pivotal discussion which marked the beginning of this kind of work for me. Imagine, for instance, you’re a spider caught in a web, feeling you’re being devoured by an organisational process. What choices for action do you have? How do you save yourself? What systems do you preserve and what do you need to relinquish? That’s how it began. A pictorial story captures a massive amount of information very quickly and also suggests what might be possible in terms of exits. It struck me there was such a useful link with CAT ways of conceptualising difficulties.
Q: When has thinking through a story lens has helped or enabled a shift in thinking?
Kate
It was about 10 years ago when I first heard Sue talk about the use of stories and metaphor. These then became such a useful tool for me within my work. I find particular stories emerge repeatedly. As an example, a “sword of Damocles” can hang over high-profile leaders, especially in situations where there is a lot of scrutiny. This Greek story helps us connect with the double-edged nature of power. Imminent threat or ever-present danger can end up manifesting as anxiety, over-control of colleagues, and burnout.
Hearing this described in very personal ways has been an important lesson for me in remembering “What’s coming down on our leaders?”. It helps me stay more open and compassionate, rather than join in a dance of blame. It also helps me encourage other staff to hold this perspective too, in the many layers of the CAT map. This story also came to mind when hearing Jenny Marshall report on the feedback from Chief Executives/Leadership in today’s NHS (Anandaciva, 2018). Voices represented in that report speak of a culture of “axes swinging” and “regulatory firing squads”.
Another story which helped challenge my assumptions is King Lear, and discussions with Sue helped to shift my thinking. The story of King Lear reminded me of the rage, banishment and harm that Lear dealt to his daughter Cordelia. She told him the truth. It resonates for me, noticing my own resentment towards others who struggle to stand up to problematic senior management processes, or offer alternative views. It allows me to appreciate the complexity and the perspective of others. Then it’s easier for me to still hold some empathy towards the “yes men”. The story represents common human behaviour and helps me resist my own map or the sometimes naïve pull to call things out.
Sue
The phrase “Infamy, Infamy they’ve all got it in for me” comes from one of the Carry On films. At the time I was reflecting on people returning to work having had a break down and/or a toxic dispute with their work system. This phrase popped in to my mind and was a way of describing two parallel processes.
One was a felt state, when staff in psychological difficulty may feel that people have it “in for them” or they’re being “got at”. Secondly, they might feel an intense sense of shame and humiliation. When off sick staff may fear becoming known for their “weakness” of not coping at work (infamy). Using this story can allow staff in difficulty to move away from both those experiences and feelings which can otherwise feel overwhelming. Once a person has some distance, it can be easier to think about what they might want to do next.
Q: What else will your event be covering?
Sue
Stories and metaphor are key aspects of our day, but the whole day takes a broader approach. Overall it covers applications of CAT more widely in organisations. We’ll be considering a whole range of these, from supervision through to identifying and influencing relational thinking in the wider organisation.
If you’d like hear more from Sue and Kate, there’s still time to book a place on their day. You can find all the details and the booking link at Thinking Organisationally: Developing CAT Supervision and Consultancy Skills. It’s open to trainee and qualified CAT practitioners and CAT psychotherapists. Other qualified therapists and other professionals with an existing understanding of how CAT works and its underlying theory are also welcome to attend.
